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Armand
explorer

Joined: Nov 20, 2006
Posts: 530
Posted: 10-11-2009 10:37   
The druids is actually one of the more interesting puzzles to solve without help because there are decent hints available within the game, and the hints are set up to lead into one another (i.e. you solve one bit and you get the next hint).

Quote:
What you are saying is that it legal for someone to snoop on you (The means and the command to do so are provided by the game - so it must be) but if you are the victim of snooping you have a duty to try and put a stop to it and modify your play, in case you inadvertently share information. This is pure Halism. I come back to my main point. Where is your authority that this is cheating? You may not like it when you are snooped upon, and want to do something about it but that is personal. And I always flee on purpose. Though most of the time I seem to leave it too late.



I did not say that being snooped was cheating, I said that deliberately giving points away to another player is cheating, and I was drawing an analogy between the two. Fleeing to someone is a response rather than an action, and it is normally fine. But if you deliberately arrange with another player to transfer all your points to him with fleeing, then that is cheating. This is covered by the looby rule.

My analogy comes from the fact that being snooped is also not an explicit action, but if abused in a similar way to fleeing it can result in information sharing which although not against the "rules", is undesirable (and in practice enforced by wizzes as a rule) as we discussed earlier in the thread. E.g. I think we'd both agree that it wouldn't be acceptable to tell a newbie to snoop you while you do the mausoleum puzzles. I don't think there's much of a line between this, and knowingly "allowing" the same newbie to snoop you typing in the answers, without specifically asking him in advance to do so. It would be similar to being in the tearoom with two other people, one of whom is an advanced player, and openly discussing game secrets with the latter. Yes, you haven't deliberately shared info with the third listener, but the end result is the same.

Quote:
And I always flee on purpose.



I was talking about deliberate transfer of points, not fleeing in a normal combat situation.




[ This Message was edited by: Armand on 10-11-2009 11:00 ]


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Armand
explorer

Joined: Nov 20, 2006
Posts: 530
Posted: 10-11-2009 10:43   
One other point:

Quote:
(The means and the command to do so are provided by the game - so it must be)



With most forms of cheating and undesirable activity, the means and the commands are provided within the game. This alone is not enough justification to decide that something is legal. Also just to reiterate, I was *not* saying snooping is cheating.

[ This Message was edited by: Armand on 10-11-2009 10:46 ]


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Samson
friar

Joined: Oct 28, 2006
Posts: 105
Posted: 10-11-2009 17:46   
As you say Armand, there are clues to doing the druids, and indeed the dragon. However, the player referred to at the start of the thread was docked points due to, I understand, asking a newbie to help with one of the puzzles in the keep. Yes, this puzzle can be done solo, but needs not be if there is another player. There are several puzzles which needed at least two players to solve, but over time have had ways of making them achievable solo introduced. Although, having said this, one of the main multi-player puzzles was able to be solved solo at one point, but once again needs multiple players. After all, MUD was designed to be multi-user!

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Armand
explorer

Joined: Nov 20, 2006
Posts: 530
Posted: 10-11-2009 17:50   
Agreed, but was the player really docked for merely asking for help? There is a difference for example between asking someone to pick up a certain item, and explaining to them how to do the whole of keep by themselves. I don't know the details of the situation, so I can't comment more. But I would assume it was more than just basic info that was revealed to the newbie?

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Samson
friar

Joined: Oct 28, 2006
Posts: 105
Posted: 10-11-2009 18:22   
This is the whole crux of the matter. According to the player in question, he wasn't told by the person who docked him why this was done. He's checked his log and can't see what secrets he'd given away, bar asking someone else to carry something.

It certainly feels as though several of the things from the great discussion back in BT MUD2 days are still happening!


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Vulnax
explorer

Joined: Oct 19, 2001
Posts: 639
From: North West
Posted: 10-11-2009 21:06   
Turrican

You are developing a dry sense of humour!
I like it!

V

Quote:

On 09-11-2009 16:32, Turrican wrote:
Quote:

On 09-11-2009 14:15, Tzunami wrote:
We put them in a room in front of this glorious text-based game of ours and with no outside guidance we see how long it would take for them to work out the puzzle known as "the druids".


It's not that bad, if you use a certain item and a bit of experimentation.

Quote:

I predict we would have 100 potential suicides on our hands (again, great for tv).


Natural selection.




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Vulnax
explorer

Joined: Oct 19, 2001
Posts: 639
From: North West
Posted: 10-11-2009 21:28   
Ohh, do I feel a long comment coming on?

Hopefully not. For your sakes!


Hints should be vague enough to encourage progress but not to give away the solution, e.g. the idol's gem ... well, what would you DO to an idol? to gain the prize?
You guys and gals should already know the answer, but a nice little treasure like that to a newbie earned like this would be a major confidence boost to them and help show them how MUD2 / Richard B's mind works.... hehe.

Snooping - it's available, allowed and usually ( used to be ) encouraged for up and comers to try, to see how their "betters" / high lifes do stuff. Often was a Wiz's response to requests for help / hints was to snoop sopme one higher level.
Yes, it can be seen as aggresive, mainly by wiz runners, PKs and those lacking game confidence or with paranoia, and these players will try and nullify it with items or magic, or even attacks. All fair.
If snooping is not set up so as to teach the newcomer then it should be fine. That is what needs to be watched out for, and it's only the wizzes who could spot this ( or another snooper on the same people! ) who would notice this.

There are indeed plenty of hints and tips in the game to sort the majority of problems / game puzzles, if people take the time to read the in game items - there are very many items with helpful tips on them, paintings, books, boxes, etc.
Maybe the lack of a fully respondant "look item" command that works like it would in say Scott Adams Adventures, Level 9 or Zork where it provides all the info on said item stymies this? Is the syntax too precise to provide the info?

Multi lining - in the old days of phone line MUD then it was hard, but now with broadband and hence seperated phone lines, mobile phones, MSN and others, then it is easy and very common for game players to be in contact with each other during game play ... does this help or detract from the game, I don't know. Is it illeagal within MUD2?
The only way I can think of for the game to check would be to scan ports on local computers for MSN or similar communication protocols and block them during play, but that still leaves 'phones etc.
Friends used to play and meet locally to chat over their sucess's and obstacles and they would share hints ( and in some cases full solutions). That could be good, and always impossible to police.

V



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Vulnax
explorer

Joined: Oct 19, 2001
Posts: 639
From: North West
Posted: 10-11-2009 21:41   
Ohh,

And I forgot to say, YES I think it would be useful to collate the rules, regulations, standards, culture & beliefs expected of MUD2 players into one document and not have them spread across fan sites, mUD2 help, MUD2 intro info, mudspeke, Information, spells, commands, etc in game.

Players really should not be expected to know all the rules / limitations ( no looby looing, multi-lining, what constitutes bullying, bad language etc. ) on their own unless they are provided with a guide / rule book.

Then there are the hard and fast rules for those important items like personal abuse and cheating, and the lesser other items can be down to personal choice, like hinting, assisstance, game work arounds etc. which should not be penalised as harshly as people try to learn / develop and progres, unless blatent cheating!

The mores and moirees of the game, the limitations of behaviours could be spelled out for once and for all, which would be administered by the Immortals.

V


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Turrican
Arch-Wizard



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 346
Posted: 10-11-2009 21:45   
Quote:

On 10-11-2009 17:46, Samson wrote:
There are several puzzles which needed at least two players to solve, but over time have had ways of making them achievable solo introduced.


No changes, alternatives were found by players who explore.

Quote:

Although, having said this, one of the main multi-player puzzles was able to be solved solo at one point, but once again needs multiple players. After all, MUD was designed to be multi-user!


That puzzle was intended to test cooperation I think.

Quote:

On 10-11-2009 18:22, Samson wrote:
This is the whole crux of the matter. According to the player in question, he wasn't told by the person who docked him why this was done. He's checked his log and can't see what secrets he'd given away, bar asking someone else to carry something.


It's possible the player in question is not telling you everything?


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royston
ranger

Joined: Jul 14, 2007
Posts: 1217
From: Felixstowe, Suffolk.
Posted: 10-11-2009 21:45   
I can see that there are certain tasks, like opening up an adit, that can be achieved by two players working together. When you do try them solo the game tells you that you are not strong enough on your own. If you ask a newbie to help you, he too will ask for help when he wants to perform this particular task himself later on. Technically I suppose this is sharing information. But I would hate anyone to be citicised for it.

On the other hand, I was told recently of a way of dealing with the Wyvern without fighting it in very explicit terms. I did not ask for this information. I assume the player was trying to impress me with his knowledge of the game. I was and still am disappointed this happened as I believe that sooner or later I would have tried this for myself.

I think that this is the crux of the matter of sharing. One of the great joys of the game is working out how to solve these problems oneself and it spoils it when the answers are presented to you by another player.

Armand: As ever you convince me.





[ This Message was edited by: royston on 10-11-2009 22:42 ]


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Samson
friar

Joined: Oct 28, 2006
Posts: 105
Posted: 10-11-2009 23:08   
So the portcullis has always been able to be opened by a solo player has it Turrican?

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Turrican
Arch-Wizard



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 346
Posted: 11-11-2009 10:47   
Quote:

On 10-11-2009 21:45, royston wrote:
On the other hand, I was told recently of a way of dealing with the Wyvern without fighting it in very explicit terms. I did not ask for this information. I assume the player was trying to impress me with his knowledge of the game.


Might also be trying to help you, in the only way they understand (having themselves worked out nothing).

Quote:

I was and still am disappointed this happened as I believe that sooner or later I would have tried this for myself.


Plenty of other secrets to discover.

Quote:

I think that this is the crux of the matter of sharing. One of the great joys of the game is working out how to solve these problems oneself and it spoils it when the answers are presented to you by another player.


I don't think they understand that.

Quote:

On 10-11-2009 23:08, Samson wrote:
So the portcullis has always been able to be opened by a solo player has it Turrican?


I believe so, it's possible it was changed before my time though.


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Armand
explorer

Joined: Nov 20, 2006
Posts: 530
Posted: 11-11-2009 16:55   
Quote:

On 10-11-2009 23:08, Samson wrote:
So the portcullis has always been able to be opened by a solo player has it Turrican?



The PC is openable solo on MUD1. So if this was not always the case on MUD2 then the change was a change back rather than a new change. Also, the PC is one of the most diverse puzzles in terms of the number of alternative methods available to get past it solo (its not necessary to open it to get past it in either direction). Once for fun with another player we came up with over 10 ways between us, although admittedly one or two were silly (e.g. qq). I'm sure at least some of these methods have always been in MUD2.

Going back to your main point, its true that MUD2 is meant to be multi-player, but the majority of the puzzles have been designed to encourage solo play and to reward solo players more than groups. With most of the puzzles which have multi-player methods, these methods are fairly obvious, and there is a less obvious solo method which results in the player getting all the points for themselves instead of having to share them. The only exception to this that I can think of is icons, and as Turrican pointed out, this was probably done deliberately so that there would be at least one task to test player co-operation. Even this was not made compulsory because you can skip one out of the eight tasks to wiz.

The multi-play element of the game has always been geared towards competition rather than cooperation. That's why most of the really good kit items do not have duplicates of equal strength, so that players are encouraged to compete for them.



[ This Message was edited by: Armand on 11-11-2009 17:06 ]


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Samson
friar

Joined: Oct 28, 2006
Posts: 105
Posted: 11-11-2009 18:12   
[quote]
On 11-11-2009 16:55, Armand wrote:
Quote:

On 10-11-2009 23:08, Samson wrote:
So the portcullis has always been able to be opened by a solo player has it Turrican?



Quote:

The PC is openable solo on MUD1. So if this was not always the case on MUD2 then the change was a change back rather than a new change.



I believe that is a change to MUD1, along with the introduction of the tea room, that was made, at the earliest, when it became known as British Legends.


Quote:

Going back to your main point, its true that MUD2 is meant to be multi-player, but the majority of the puzzles have been designed to encourage solo play and to reward solo players more than groups. With most of the puzzles which have multi-player methods, these methods are fairly obvious, and there is a less obvious solo method which results in the player getting all the points for themselves instead of having to share them. The only exception to this that I can think of is icons, and as Turrican pointed out, this was probably done deliberately so that there would be at least one task to test player co-operation. Even this was not made compulsory because you can skip one out of the eight tasks to wiz.



Alternative solo methods have been introduced over time, which enabled puzzles to be completed solo due to the lack of critical mass of players.

Quote:

The multi-play element of the game has always been geared towards competition rather than cooperation. That's why most of the really good kit items do not have duplicates of equal strength, so that players are encouraged to compete for them.

[ This Message was edited by: Armand on 11-11-2009 17:06 ]



There has always been a mix of co-operative puzzles and competition, yes. However, I feel we are drifting away from the point raised in this thread, which was regarding the information sharing between players to enable puzzles to be solved, either by themselves solo, or co-operating with others. Taking the puzzle of the icons, for an example, would we, as a collective say it was ok for new players to be told the locations they had to do something, or just chose one of the locations and always ask new players to go there? I would say that explaining to them what happens to the 'leader' would be frowned upon, as that would spoil the mystique and sense of adventure.


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Turrican
Arch-Wizard



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 346
Posted: 11-11-2009 19:12   
Quote:

On 11-11-2009 16:55, Armand wrote:
although admittedly one or two were silly (e.g. qq).


Quit is actually a teleportation spell.

Quote:

That's why most of the really good kit items do not have duplicates of equal strength, so that players are encouraged to compete for them.


But if the number of players is low they are encouraged to find their own empty reset (boo, hiss).

Quote:

On 11-11-2009 18:12, Samson wrote:
Alternative solo methods have been introduced over time, which enabled puzzles to be completed solo due to the lack of critical mass of players.


That's not consistent with my experience. Almost all of the shortcuts are accidents due to interactions with other puzzles/objects/mechanics, and over time many of these were fixed or changed when they became common knowledge.

Quote:

Taking the puzzle of the icons, for an example, would we, as a collective say it was ok for new players to be told the locations they had to do something, or just chose one of the locations and always ask new players to go there?


I don't see harm in telling them the nearest location.


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Hawumph
Arch-Wizard



Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 360
From: Somewhere you don't want to go!
Posted: 12-11-2009 13:47   
Quote:

On 31-10-2009 12:36, royston wrote:
I understand that a player was docked 1K points by a Wiz recently for giving a Newbie too much information.

I would suggest that this was not breaking any rule but merely bad sportsmanship.



Well, perhaps, but then the dock was meant by way of a hint that this was a bad idea, it spoils the game for people. A FOD might have been bad sportsmanship and excessive, but a dock, no, it should have made a point.

It should have. It happened in reset 43124, at 13:59:19, on the 28th of October.

However .......

Quote:

On the other hand, I was told recently of a way of dealing with the Wyvern without fighting it in very explicit terms. I did not ask for this information. I assume the player was trying to impress me with his knowledge of the game. I was and still am disappointed this happened as I believe that sooner or later I would have tried this for myself.



This incident happened at 21:34:28, in reset 43128, on the 28th of October. Yes folks, approximately 7.5 hours after the dock that was SO traumatic everyone had to be told about it, the dockee proceeds to tell Royston something he didn't particularly want to know, not as a hint, but a direct one line you do this like this message, no chance to ask for hints or otherwise.

I think this amply illustrates both the perpetrator's lack of thought (he justified the second action by saying he didn't feel bad telling it, because he was told it) and also the fact that telling stuff like this does indeed spoil any mystique or at least the joy of puzzle solving, which several people, myself being one, found a major part of the game experience.

So rather than trying to quantify everything to a set of rules, which people will then proceed to analyse for pitfalls and omissions to abuse (past experience amply illustrates this to be true) why not try a little thought, a degree of hinting if people are stuck as opposed to outright telling them a set of instructions like a walk through, and maybe even let the game be just that, a game, something to enjoy rather than a live forum requiring moderation ad infinitum?

Oh, and perhaps you (yes, you know who you are) should learn to listen when given a docking or similar warning. There are only so many times you can gently hint at players before an example has to be made.

</RANT|>


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blib
explorer

Joined: Jan 01, 2007
Posts: 531
From: N.London (just)
Posted: 12-11-2009 15:35   
There's a Wyvern?
_________________
Fleeing is for wimps !


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Armand
explorer

Joined: Nov 20, 2006
Posts: 530
Posted: 12-11-2009 17:18   
I mostly agree with that Hawumph, but the problem is that MUD2 is rather unusual in its set of customs. Go into just about any other modern game and tell people that it is bad sportsmanship and mystique-ruining to share information, and you'll be laughed at and pointed to half a dozen websites with the game's mechanics and puzzles spelled out in great detail.

I love the fact that MUD2 discourages information sharing, and for me also a lot of my fun at first was in learning things for myself. But this is not at all obvious to the average new player, and thats why I think some kind of in-game explanation to new players, even if its not a rigid set of rules which is vulnerable to being picked apart, would be helpful.

It seems obvious to an existing mud2 player (i.e. you and I) that divulging info is thoughtless, but if you look at it from the mindset of a newbie coming from a more modern gaming background, there's no reason why it would even occur to them that it isn't acceptable. I've had many conversations with newbies in which they started out asking direct puzzle-related questions, and I had to explain to them that MUD2 isn't like that, and players are encouraged to learn for themselves. Usually this explanation is accepted, but it does still need to be given.

Obviously what I've said doesn't apply to the specific person you mentioned, because he already had it explained to him, and chose to re-offend.



[ This Message was edited by: Armand on 12-11-2009 17:29 ]


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Turrican
Arch-Wizard



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 346
Posted: 12-11-2009 17:57   
Quote:

On 12-11-2009 13:47, Hawumph wrote:
I think this amply illustrates both the perpetrator's lack of thought (he justified the second action by saying he didn't feel bad telling it, because he was told it)


Not surprising, players who put effort into acquiring knowledge rarely give it away for free.

Mud2 secrets act like memes, the keep meme being a particularly successful one. Solutions I think are, 1) tweak the game, 2) kill the infected hosts (except Royston, hes got partial immunity).

Quote:

</RANT|>


I hate it when people don't match up tags!

Quote:

On 12-11-2009 15:35, blib wrote:
There's a Wyvern?



There's a Blib?


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Gadget
friar

Joined: Dec 08, 2001
Posts: 88
Posted: 12-11-2009 23:01   
Quote:

On 12-11-2009 17:57, Turrican wrote:
Quote:

On 12-11-2009 13:47, Hawumph wrote:
I think this amply illustrates both the perpetrator's lack of thought (he justified the second action by saying he didn't feel bad telling it, because he was told it)


Not surprising, players who put effort into acquiring knowledge rarely give it away for free.

Mud2 secrets act like memes, the keep meme being a particularly successful one. Solutions I think are, 1) tweak the game, 2) kill the infected hosts (except Royston, hes got partial immunity).

Quote:

</RANT|>


I hate it when people don't match up tags!

Quote:

On 12-11-2009 15:35, blib wrote:
There's a Wyvern?



There's a Blib?




Someone's an xhtml pedant...

I find the real secret to the wyvern is to hit it a lot more than it hits you and for highter stamina amounts!


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