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Author FAO: Jericho - I just read your column :)
Eric
cleric

Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 134
From: Liverpool
Posted: 13-10-2001 02:45   
Lo.

Got some feedback for you on your column, if you don't mind.

I just reckon that if Mud2 was free, like it was under wp, a LOT of people would be playing it. It shouldn't be the fact that no-one wants to play mud2 (I think they do), it should be that a lot of people can't afford to play mud2, or don't want to pay so much for it.

I agree with you that it is hideously under-promoted. Just looking at the size and popularity of the mudconnector website, you can tell there is a definitely a market for good muds out there, and not many living up to expectations.

But then, it's always been hideously under-promoted since I've played the game, even at wireplay it seemed like it was just shoved in a corner and told to get on with it.

Anyway keep up the good work. An opinion is an opinion, and yours are interesting, whether I agree or not


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Theman
cleric

Joined: Aug 31, 2001
Posts: 167
From: My chair
Posted: 13-10-2001 10:25   
You say it's cheap but to most people it's not cheap enough to warrent paying for. I get the feeling sometimes that people are reclutant to change, that the game should stay the way it is because it has always been this way (I don't think this version is even listed on mudconnect). Maybe it is time to take a look around and START CHANGING THINGS. It may sound a little harsh but I can think of few instances on WPMUD2 when things were actually changed, even after months of forum debates.

Also I may be wrong on this but it sure looks like even BL has more players than MUDii.

Shades is still out there, it's just not really played....

[ This Message was edited by: Theman on 13-10-2001 10:25 ]


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Karya
Witch



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 199
Posted: 13-10-2001 12:32   
Quote:

On 13-10-2001 10:25, Theman wrote:
I don't think this version is even listed on mudconnect.



Firstly, this version of mud is listed on the Mud Connecter and numerous other mud connecter type websites also.

Quote:
Maybe it is time to take a look around and START CHANGING THINGS.



Change what type of things exactly? Since we've moved servers numerous things have been changed, admitedly most of them have been subtle game features, but subtle helps too. Oh yes, and there's the major changes such as being able to ban people from playing, a facility we didn't really have available during the latter era with Wireplay. More long-term strategies are in place, but ... what kind of changes were you thinking of?

Quote:
It may sound a little harsh but I can think of few instances on WPMUD2 when things were actually changed, even after months of forum debates.



Since these forums have opened we've only had one really "meaty" debate. We're still in the early stages, hopefully more debates will get going, but until then we can't have action on debates until the actual debates have happened.

Quote:
Also I may be wrong on this but it sure looks like even BL has more players than MUDii.




Whenever I've visited BL it's always been desperatetly empty (wizzes excluded obviously), but maybe it's just the times I play.


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Eric
cleric

Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 134
From: Liverpool
Posted: 14-10-2001 01:33   
Plus BL is free isn't it? If so, you can't really compare it to a subs-based mud!

Personally I don't like offering things up for change because in the past, I didn't feel anyone was listening.

I remember reading an interesting thing on Richard's website, listing a lot of idea submissions and what he thought their viability was. That was the one and only time I've felt "ooh look, someone's actually reading and thinking about what people suggest".

Like mandrakes having a syn at the start of a reset for example (sorry, a very very minor thing, but something I know a fair few people have suggested).

Or player feedback on the changes - sometimes a piece of important kit doesn't spawn in a set - did we ever get told about this very major (and not subtle) change?

I know it's your game and all that, and you can do what you want with it, but as far as I can see, this is very unpopular with a lot of people. Well you have to class them as paying customers now.

Just my thoughts.
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Theman
cleric

Joined: Aug 31, 2001
Posts: 167
From: My chair
Posted: 14-10-2001 10:16   
I know Lexley suggested changes in her physics article once, don't know if any were ever implemented though...

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Karya
Witch



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 199
Posted: 14-10-2001 12:57   
Quote:

On 14-10-2001 01:33, Eric wrote:
Personally I don't like offering things up for change because in the past, I didn't feel anyone was listening.



Haven't you had replies on forums whenever you've brought something up (like now)?

Quote:
Like mandrakes having a syn at the start of a reset for example (sorry, a very very minor thing, but something I know a fair few people have suggested).



The mandrake currently has the non-specific syn of "root" but there is absolutely no reason why you can't use the SUGGEST command to suggest a more relevant syn for the mandrakes, or is this what you meant? Remember though, that your suggestions don't get implemented until the next version change, and occassionally it can take more than one suggestion and version change before it gets implemented. I don't know why this is, I just know that WAVER had to be suggested 3 times before it got implemented! As a side-note to this, the vast majortity of syns, emotions and commands such as waver have been implemented solely because of players using the SUGGEST command.

Quote:
Or player feedback on the changes - sometimes a piece of important kit doesn't spawn in a set - did we ever get told about this very major (and not subtle) change?



I can think of two reasons immediately to answer this:

  1. To tell players about this specific change would have defeated part of the purpose of implementing this change.
  2. It isn't a permanent change, just something that is being tried out.

By the way, I've asked around and this is the first time anyone has mentioned this as a complaint, formally.

Quote:
I know it's your game and all that, and you can do what you want with it, but as far as I can see, this is very unpopular with a lot of people. Well you have to class them as paying customers now.



A lot of things are very unpopular with people (mortals in this case). Tradionally wizzes are very umpopular with mortals, anything wizzes do are very unpopular with mortals, and anybody in an authoritative position is usually very unpopular with people in general. The simple matter of things are, no matter what we (game management) do a fair proportion of mortals aren't going to like it simply because we are wizzes. It takes time for changes to happen, we would all like a brilliant new idea to be implemented tomorrow but it takes time to work things into the game and besides, anyone who has the ability to implement changes in this game simply doesn't have the time to devote their full attention to MUD2, they have jobs, projects, families and lives to live. As for changes that have happened, there is usually a very good reason why mortals are not told explicitly about certain changes.


We've now added a "Game Suggestions" forum, if you'd like to see changes made leave a message in there and if there is enough support (and it's a reasonable change) we'll endeavour to implement it as soon as humanly possible.


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Karya
Witch



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 199
Posted: 14-10-2001 12:59   
Quote:

On 14-10-2001 10:16, Theman wrote:
I know Lexley suggested changes in her physics article once, don't know if any were ever implemented though...


Off the top of my head at least two of her suggestions were implemented, mobiles waking up whenever someone shouts and the amber thing.


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Theman
cleric

Joined: Aug 31, 2001
Posts: 167
From: My chair
Posted: 14-10-2001 17:07   
Quote:
The simple matter of things are, no matter what we (game management) do a fair proportion of mortals aren't going to like it simply because we are wizzes



I don't believe this is true, people don't dislike wizzes because they are wizzes, people dislike them as and when they make BAD discisions. Then you will find a fair proportion will complain...


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Karya
Witch



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 199
Posted: 14-10-2001 17:28   
Bad decisions are a matter of opinion.

I think that what may actually happen is that one or two wizzes make a bad decision and all the other wizzes suffer for it because the mortals blame the wizzes collectively.

People seem to forget that even wizzes make mistakes, and we pay for them bad enough from the arches without having the mortal population on our backs for ever-more.

Sorry for digressing from the original point of this topic.


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Eric
cleric

Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 134
From: Liverpool
Posted: 14-10-2001 23:54   
I've suggested (ingame, the suggest command) many things - such as having "md" a syn for mandrake. Never heard much about them.

About the non spawning items, I have spoke to a few people (not just morts) about this, and we've discussed it loads. Personally, I think it's a great idea to use it as a sort of test for people who are getting good at the game, but for everyday sets, it is very...infuriating at times.

I'm just not a very patient mort I guess

As I said, I would have suggested something about it, but I didn't know if people read them.

Game ideas forums is a great idea!

Also, about the wizzes dislike. Even if people don't like wizzes, they should, and for the most part do, respect them and their decisions! I think mortals blame the wizzes collectively because you are by nature, a little seperate collective!

"The management".

I do think all morts should respect the wizzes, since they are proven masters at the game. You can't ask morts to like wizzes though, because that comes down to personal opinion of each person.

It's the same as asking people to like everyone in MA or something like that.


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Cazador
novice

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 1
Posted: 15-10-2001 00:48   
Quote:

On 13-10-2001 10:25, Theman wrote:
You say it's cheap but to most people it's not cheap enough to warrent paying for. I get the feeling sometimes that people are reclutant to change, that the game should stay the way it is because it has always been this way (I don't think this version is even listed on mudconnect). Maybe it is time to take a look around and START CHANGING THINGS. It may sound a little harsh but I can think of few instances on WPMUD2 when things were actually changed, even after months of forum debates.

Also I may be wrong on this but it sure looks like even BL has more players than MUDii.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Theman on 13-10-2001 10:25 ]</font>



I also believe that the sub price is a bit too high to encourage new players.

While it's true that some players used to end up with ?100+ phone bills on Wireplay this was before free unmetered internet access became available.

I can't see why a player new to the world of muds now (not players who used to play on WP/GP and came back) would choose to pay a ?12 sub when there's loads that you can join for free.


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Eric
cleric

Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 134
From: Liverpool
Posted: 15-10-2001 01:52   
The majority of muds out there, are quite frankly pants. You pay for quality

Although I wouldn't mind seeing mud2's prices a bit lower meself


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Theman
cleric

Joined: Aug 31, 2001
Posts: 167
From: My chair
Posted: 15-10-2001 16:54   
That's because most of them are "My friend's got this server" variety. Wait till mainstream always-on broadband comes out...stock MUDs galore...


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Foddy
Arch-Wizard



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 138
Posted: 15-10-2001 23:29   
Quote:

On 14-10-2001 23:54, Eric wrote:
About the non spawning items, I have spoke to a few people (not just morts) about this, and we've discussed it loads. Personally, I think it's a great idea to use it as a sort of test for people who are getting good at the game, but for everyday sets, it is very...infuriating at times.


OK! Some background would help, perhaps. I don't like the game to be static. Ideally I'd like to make subtle (and some not so subtle) changes every month. The changes I made (it seems you've only spotted one of the two) were put in to see how people would react to the game changing. The second change was more of a help than a hinderance, by the way.

Why those changes? The short answer is that people would be sure to notice the changes. The long answer ...

When I started to play MUD, the game was only open during the evening and late night. We also paid a lot of money to play, so there was no sitting in the tearoom and talking. (There was a saloon bar, but that was outside of the game, and mostly occupied during resets ... which took a long time!)

The effect of this was that everyone played at the same time. There was real competition between players. Of course, I was probably incredibly naive back then, but I believe this sort of competition has been lost.

These days, I've noticed that our high-lifes all tend to play to the same formula. This may be due to MUD being open all hours, or it may not be related. Either way, a large number of players won't play at all if they don't their favourite set of kit.

This, in my opinion, is a very bad thing. It means that only one highlife can play at any one time. It means that players don't adapt to their surroundings, they're less flexible. Generally, it's bad for the player and bad for the game.

So, the idea was to remove one or two "key" objects once in a while - not to frustrate players, but to encourage them to learn to play without them. After all, it should be possible to play a perfectly respectible reset without most of the items which go missing after all.

I don't know which wiz you discussed it with, but might I suggest that you'd have done better discussing it with someone who knows why it was implemented? (i.e. me! )

Foddy


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Popculturemonkey
friar

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 95
Posted: 16-10-2001 00:22   
It's a rare day that I agree with Foddy, but hell... He's right.

And it's a good idea.

The furniture should be rearranged more often.
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Theman
cleric

Joined: Aug 31, 2001
Posts: 167
From: My chair
Posted: 16-10-2001 09:56   
The real problem here then is striking a balance. Removing key objects is all fine and well for highlives but what about lowlives looking to solve puzzles. It's infuritating enough but now we find they only have the oppertunity to find the items to do it occasionaly.

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Foddy
Arch-Wizard



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 138
Posted: 16-10-2001 23:48   
Quote:

On 16-10-2001 09:56, Theman wrote:
The real problem here then is striking a balance. Removing key objects is all fine and well for highlives but what about lowlives looking to solve puzzles. It's infuritating enough but now we find they only have the oppertunity to find the items to do it occasionaly.


I personally believe there is a good balance at the moment. It's far from constant - on average, a particular object goes missing something like once in a day and a half. The majority of the objects aren't required for puzzles, either.

Don't forget that your lowlife of today is your highlife of tomorrow - if players are getting into bad habits, they don't just gain them when they get a few points.

Lastly, how would a lowlife know that an object hasn't been used by another (possibly invisible) player already?

I don't buy it. The only people who are affected by this are people who assume things will be in the same place every reset, and can't play without them.

Foddy


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Eric
cleric

Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 134
From: Liverpool
Posted: 17-10-2001 01:11   
But didnt most people play without these objects anyway, and not quit when they saw it was gone (I can think of one or two who didnt, mind)?



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Theman
cleric

Joined: Aug 31, 2001
Posts: 167
From: My chair
Posted: 17-10-2001 19:38   
You'd presume that experienced players would easily be able to adapt their playing style.

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Karya
Witch



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 199
Posted: 17-10-2001 19:43   
Quote:

On 17-10-2001 19:38, Theman wrote:
You'd presume that experienced players would easily be able to adapt their playing style.


You'd like to hope so!<g>
If an experienced player cannot adapt their playing style then I think they can't call themselves an experienced player!
Note that score doesn't necessarily equate to experience.


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