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Author Wizrunning
Sabretooth
Wizard



Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 38
Posted: 11-10-2009 21:14   
I am trying to encourage debate about wiz running, any players who have experiences of wiz running i would like them to post there thoughts and experiences of how it went. I have noticed there are not many players attempting to wiz run of late so would like to gather some thoughts on the subject here and to talk about them.

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royston
ranger

Joined: Jul 14, 2007
Posts: 1217
From: Felixstowe, Suffolk.
Posted: 12-10-2009 09:34   
Blib is the expert. He has done more Wizruns than anyone, so he tells me.

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Crazyfool
Wizard



Joined: Sep 16, 2001
Posts: 789
From: Llanelli
Posted: 12-10-2009 10:45   
I assume you only want mortal contributions here Sabre?

Cf


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Sabretooth
Wizard



Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 38
Posted: 12-10-2009 10:56   
I want all contributions including any wiz that has some input into the topic, just trying to see everyones views on wiz running. Would like to know what players hate about there past experiences and what they enjoyed about playing mage or didnt enjoy, also if any player has alternative ideas on ways of wiz running.

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Crazyfool
Wizard



Joined: Sep 16, 2001
Posts: 789
From: Llanelli
Posted: 12-10-2009 11:08   
I enjoyed it but I have the advantage of hindsight. Im sure at the time I did not view it as enjoyable. Was exciting though. Its well worth doing. Id rather have an empty account than 3 mages who never play.


Cf


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Magician
cleric

Joined: Mar 27, 2005
Posts: 160
Posted: 12-10-2009 20:51   
Ummmmm, who would have 3 Mages and not play?

JB


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Turrican
Arch-Wizard



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 346
Posted: 12-10-2009 21:49   
Quote:

On 12-10-2009 10:56, Sabretooth wrote:
I want all contributions including any wiz that has some input into the topic,


I hated the wait between resets, the threat of being teamed by APK's. With hindsight it was unsatisfying, too easy.

Quote:

On 12-10-2009 20:51, Magician wrote:
Ummmmm, who would have 3 Mages and not play?


Several people, me.


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Crowley
pioneer

Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 421
From: Birmingham
Posted: 12-10-2009 22:24   
I haven't done much, but I found you tend to reach a certain level of ability, and then hit a hard ceiling where you're simply not good enough, and only persistence will see you through. At my best, I reckon I was as good as any mortal, but didn't have the stamina to get through that barrier. I think you need serious patience or bloody mindedness to go up against the wall again and again and again until you break through. I never really had the time (or ability!) to make it that far.


_________________
*Fiz the necromancess says "I've been advised by everyone in the game to ignore you, Crowley".


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Sabretooth
Wizard



Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 38
Posted: 13-10-2009 10:36   
Crowley made some good points about hitting the barrier, during many of my failed wiz runs i hit that barrier many times, it takes a lot of mental toughness to rough it out, i did not always have that required inner strength to do it which is why it took me so many years to reach my final goal.

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Turrican
Arch-Wizard



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 346
Posted: 13-10-2009 13:02   
Quote:

On 12-10-2009 22:24, Crowley wrote:
I haven't done much, but I found you tend to reach a certain level of ability, and then hit a hard ceiling where you're simply not good enough, and only persistence will see you through.


Persistence with that particular strategy?

Quote:

At my best, I reckon I was as good as any mortal,


Everyone form a (dis)orderly queue.

Quote:

but didn't have the magic stamina to get through that barrier.





[ This Message was edited by: turrican on 13-10-2009 13:57 ]


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Armand
explorer

Joined: Nov 20, 2006
Posts: 530
Posted: 13-10-2009 14:49   
I think the barrier applied more so in previous years of the game's history, where servers were very busy and 10+ players in a reset was the norm. In that environment you are constantly having to compete for resources (tools and points) and having to worry about teaming. There is a limit to the extent that a lone player's skill can overcome those two problems, since in the former you cannot cover all tools/areas simultaneously no matter how fast you are, and in the latter your skill advantage is overwhelmed by numbers.

However these days the (unfortunate) reality is that the game is empty most of the time, and otherwise sparesely populated, with most players being non-aggressive or idle in the tearoom. So my views on what it takes to wizrun in today's environment are twofold:

1. The exploration stage. Obviously in order to have a decent chance at wizrunning you need to learn the game as thoroughly as possible. I think at a minimum this means: (a) Having a good map in your head (a written map helps but is optional as you will need to learn most of it by heart anyway), (b) learning the majority of the game's puzzles and gameplay mechanics, and (c) achieving sufficient ability and speed to be able to obtain decent set scores (14k minimum in my opinion, but 15-18k is preferable). I consider typing speed and mastery of abbreviations and shortcuts to be an essential part of this.

2. The PvP stage. You have mastered the game to a sufficient standard and are starting to attempt wizruns, which means playing at high warlock and mage. You are now on the radar of pkers, and you will need to learn how to defend yourself which means being able to beat them at their own game, i.e. learning how to pk.

I think any determined player with sufficient time, effort, and motivation can achieve the first including typing speed with the use of third-party tools such as Mavis Beacon if you are not already proficient (consider it an extra "puzzle" to solve). This leaves the second problem. The ideal scenario would be to reach a level of skill equal to or greater than the pker, so that you can on average beat them in 50% or more of fights. This is quite difficult to achieve because the pker has a few advantages over you: (a) experience, (b) easier access to game knowledge, (c) death for you is a 100% loss but their death only a 20% gain for you (death itself doesn't factor into "losing" for them since their objective is preventing your wizrun, not worrying about their own), and (d) Ability to play with a lower score than you thus giving you less points when they lose than the points you lose to them.

However, the pker has two big disadvantages which mean that in reality you do not need to be as good as him/her to wizrun, and can afford to win much less than 50% of the time. Firstly, he will find it hard to be present during 100% of your sets, whereas you are of course playing in 100% of your sets. This means that some proportion of the time you will score points without trouble, even if you don't sneak. Secondly, and assuming you have mastered fighting to a reasonable level, you will rarely die, and will be limiting your point loss to around 4.5% of total score per fight and sometimes less if you flee low. This means the pker is mostly restricted to costing you a % of score (maximum of around 9k per flee on a 204k mage) whilst you gain around 2.25% of their score whenever you win, in addition to your hourly rate of around 10k from the game.

There are some assumptions here obviously, but in very simplistic terms, you will be making around 15-18k per set where there is no fight, losing anywhere from 1k to 9k per defeat over the course of your post-warlock wizrun, and gaining probably around 1.5k per win. I'd say that if you can reach the point where you are winning perhaps 20-30% of your fights against pkers then you are within reach of wiz. Even at 20% and on a 180k mage, an average fight only wipes out about 45 minutes of a "normal" set for an advanced player. Mastery of the game and of fighting are the keys. The dragon can be viewed as an additional low-skill "pker" who will sometimes make you flee, and occasionally kill you (hopefully reasonably rarely if you use a good strategy), but who also contributes to your hourly rate.

A thought on sneaking: I think this strategy is doomed to failure and the idea of it being an easy option is a bit of a myth amongst those that attempt it. You are likely to be a lot less proficient at winning fights, avoiding death, and having high set score averages (if you were proficient at those, you'd have no reason to sneak). Additionally, you become a LOT more noticable to pkers who will be after you constantly when they might otherwise leave you alone. Overall therefore the points you gain from empty sets are likely to be cancelled out by the losses you incur as your score goes up. This is evidenced by the lack of succesful sneaky wizruns over the years, and the lack of very high level sneaky players in the game. The best strategy for wizrunning in my opinion is to face the challenges rather than hide from them.

[ This Message was edited by: Armand on 13-10-2009 14:52 ]


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Fiz
cabalist

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 60
From: London
Posted: 13-10-2009 14:57   
Hal advocates:

mapping
killing everyone

The end!


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Armand
explorer

Joined: Nov 20, 2006
Posts: 530
Posted: 13-10-2009 14:58   
Thanks Fiz for doing the Blib-friendly translation of my post

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Turrican
Arch-Wizard



Joined: Aug 19, 2001
Posts: 346
Posted: 13-10-2009 18:29   
Quote:

On 13-10-2009 14:49, Armand wrote:
There is a limit to the extent that a lone player's skill can overcome those two problems, since in the former you cannot cover all tools/areas simultaneously no matter how fast you are,


Makes sense but players seemed to manage with the first somehow.

Quote:

1. The exploration stage.


This can be optionally replaced with have a friend show you everything, but in the long run turns out to be ineffective .

Quote:

However, the pker has two big disadvantages


You missed a few. Thirdly pker will always enter the set sometime after you, assuming you refuse to play at the start of a reset or if the reset is tainted (a common scheme). Fourthly you can quit or hide if the situation looks grim (common also), the pk can't do this if he wants to pk.

Quote:

This means that some proportion of the time you will score points without trouble, even if you don't sneak.


Don't you mean even if you don't intend to sneak?

Quote:

Secondly, and assuming you have mastered fighting to a reasonable level, you will rarely die,


By typing in the magic string(s)!

Quote:

A thought on sneaking: I think this strategy is doomed to failure and the idea of it being an easy option is a bit of a myth amongst those that attempt it.


Players rarely think they are sneaking, how do you tell them what they are not doing is ineffective?


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Magician
cleric

Joined: Mar 27, 2005
Posts: 160
Posted: 13-10-2009 20:16   
Hal, Great post:-)

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Miek
pioneer

Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Posts: 293
Posted: 13-10-2009 21:03   
Nice read hal.
Go wiz.

/ZED


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Vulnax
explorer

Joined: Oct 19, 2001
Posts: 639
From: North West
Posted: 13-10-2009 21:16   
Quote : This is quite difficult to achieve because the pker has a few advantages over you: (a) experience, (b) easier access to game knowledge.

Why (b) - easier access to game knowledge?? Does this assume the PKer is that mythical beast a Wizmort? How does playing PK allow better access to game knowledge? Fighting experiance yes.. but lost me ( maybe 'cos I don't play PK ?? )


Also, your astute summary assumes there is only 1 PKer after your highlife.. so the potential for others being on at sometime you are playing your highlife rises, and many players ( well, when we had many ) may come on as a nice personae but swap to the PKer when they see who is on ...


V


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Vulnax
explorer

Joined: Oct 19, 2001
Posts: 639
From: North West
Posted: 13-10-2009 21:23   
Ohh yeah,

I agree with Crowleys ceiling thing, after losing a few warlocks in a row ( not really wiz-running but going for mage ! ) I got wary of playing them and became a tea room warlock, or played lower levels just to play ...

Put me off a bit.

I'm not the best fighter / PKer by far and I got fed up losing points when attacked while doing some thing, so gave up and stayed low.

Time to play also affected this ... more time to play probably would have avoided a lot of this apprehesion...

V


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Armand
explorer

Joined: Nov 20, 2006
Posts: 530
Posted: 14-10-2009 10:39   
Quote:
You missed a few. Thirdly pker will always enter the set sometime after you, assuming you refuse to play at the start of a reset or if the reset is tainted (a common scheme). Fourthly you can quit or hide if the situation looks grim (common also), the pk can't do this if he wants to pk.



Good points of course. I guess in my mind I was thinking of those as somewhat "sneaky" tactics so I didn't cover them. But they are indeed common and give the pker significant disadvantages.

Quote:
Players rarely think they are sneaking, how do you tell them what they are not doing is ineffective?



There's no easy answer to this, but if you are actively avoiding fights because you are afraid of losing, then you have the wrong approach. You can never hope to become better at fighting this way and even the fights you do have you will not learn from properly because the fear of losing points will override everything else and you won't be focussing properly on the fight.

Quote:
Why (b) - easier access to game knowledge?? Does this assume the PKer is that mythical beast a Wizmort? How does playing PK allow better access to game knowledge? Fighting experiance yes.. but lost me ( maybe 'cos I don't play PK ?? )



I think you answered your own question there.. not that there is any such thing as a wizmort

Quote:
Also, your astute summary assumes there is only 1 PKer after your highlife.. so the potential for others being on at sometime you are playing your highlife rises, and many players ( well, when we had many ) may come on as a nice personae but swap to the PKer when they see who is on ...



Actually whenever I referred to "the pker" etc I was using it as a loose term to cover whichever particular pker is after you in any one set. My assumption was not that there was only 1 pker, but that there was only 1 pker at any given time i.e. no teaming. Of course if you are being teamed regularly then it becomes much harder, but chances are the wizrunner probably did something like sneaking to attract that kind of attention, in which case see above As you said, we don't have very many pkers these days anyway, so you are still going to get plenty of sets without being troubled, although of course you will get more attention on a mage than on a necro.

Quote:
I agree with Crowleys ceiling thing, after losing a few warlocks in a row ( not really wiz-running but going for mage ! ) I got wary of playing them and became a tea room warlock, or played lower levels just to play ... Put me off a bit. I'm not the best fighter / PKer by far and I got fed up losing points when attacked while doing some thing, so gave up and stayed low.



I would argue that this is not a real ceiling because you have further ground to cover in terms of fighting ability which you could gain by more practice. The kind of ceiling Crowley was describing is a hypothetical situation where it is impossible to advance any further in terms of ability and the only way to break through is by repeated attempts and eventually getting a good run of luck. In the situation you describe I think the best strategy would be to forget about trying to make mage, and run a pker yourself for a few months. It doesn't have to be a highlife, you could easily pk using a sorc/necro/low warlock. And if you can learn to mostly avoid death (definitely a realistic goal), your losses will be minimised.


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Armand
explorer

Joined: Nov 20, 2006
Posts: 530
Posted: 14-10-2009 10:53   
A different point about wizrunning: I think one major stumbling block for a lot of players is attachment to personae and points. Players get to warlock or mage and then they become desperately afraid of losing their hard work and find themselves unwilling to risk it any further. This is a fundamentally flawed strategy! You are not "risking" your mage by playing it, because you had nothing to risk in the first place. Your tearoom mage is exactly the same as a novice in wizrunning terms.. it is a dead persona which is never going to wiz. At this point all you are risking by playing is having a different postfix on your tearoomer. The time you spent getting to mage is already gone. You are never getting it back and it is therefore irrelevant. Think of your mage as a novice which just happens to have better stats, magic, and only requires half the usual number of points to wiz. If you die, you have lost nothing, because by choosing not to play you had no chance of wizzing anyway.

To put it another way, deciding to permenantly tearoom a mage is functionally equivalent to having it die in the land. At least by dying in the Land you were doing something which gave you a chance of wizzing, and probably helped you learn and gain extra skills.

EDIT: The above assumes that you have already maximised your game knowledge and fighting ability. If not then you I don't think you should be worried about making mages or high warlocks anyway (other than maybe once or twice just for personal satisfaction) since they are useless to you. It is far more productive to concentrate on learning the game more or practicing fighting, and forget entirely about any possibility of wizrunning. You'll care less about death because you know you aren't going for wiz anyway.

[ This Message was edited by: Armand on 14-10-2009 13:05 ]


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